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  • AI Upscale proof based discussion

I have trouble understanding your point of view.

According to the title, you seem to argue that the upscale brings absolutely nothing, but according to the end of your comment, you say the opposite.

Unless the title refers to the words of "u/thejinx2Na", but in that case I find your wording rather poor.

Otherwise, from my point of view, upscaling "can" bring improvement to a video.

I myself played this little game a month or two ago (following a discussion on the XBVR discord), a test done on a video from jacquie&michelimmersion (a vr studio that unfortunately no longer exists) on a 1440p video that I switched to 1920p, even if this causes some minor artifacts, the rendering is of better quality than the original version (sharper)

1440p

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/802592946221875241/926566273624731699/1440p.jpg

1920p

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/802592946221875241/926566274039947284/1920p.jpg

We can also see it with the video of wankvr and milfvr (maybe also NA if they use upscale on their remaster), the remaster is more pleasant than the original version.

Then, of course, there must be a better quality taken with a camera originally filming in high resolutions (provided that the cameraman knows how to set it up and use it properly).
But I don't think we should "demonize" upscaled videos that were not shot with the latest technology cameras.

    Upscaling has no point imo. Ive seen multiple upscaled videos and they atmost seem 10% better. Just shoot in 8K camera and u won't need to do any of this upscaling nonsense that barely works.

    midorijin That's exactly the point. There's absolutely no quality improvement with current upscale tools for high resolution videos like 4K VR.

    If I understand correctly you compare higher and lower resolutions, none of them is upscale. Please check the OP blogpost

        doublevr So if I understand correctly, there is no "noticeable" improvement for videos "beyond" 4k, right? (never tested, not having the use of more, I can not say).

        (be careful, my message is not to make anyone angry, I'm just trying to untangle things to understand them 😁 )

            midorijin that is NOT correct.

            The higher resolution of video production - the better. No matter what is headset resolution highest video resolution is always better.

            Important is to render videos at original camera resolution. 4K camera should be rendered in 4K videos, 6K camera in 6K, 8K in 8K and so on. Yet some producers use to shoot in 5.4K and render it in 6K, 7K or 8K. They use video upscaling technique, which brings no actual improvement. They use it solely for marketing purposes. They are selling you 8K which is actually no more than 5.4K.

                doublevr That the video is "normally" delivered at the maximum resolution of the camera, I fully agree, especially that beyond 6k, do we really see a difference with current headsets?

                Nevertheless, in my opinion (which only concerns me), I do not completely agree that upscaling does not bring anything.

                The example I showed above shows it quite well.

                In 1920p upscale, the video is clearly sharper and more pleasant to watch (original video in 1440p, it does not officially exist in higher resolution).

                Well, personally, beyond 4k videos (1920p, max 2048p), I don't care, not that I wouldn't like to have a better quality (5k or 6k max), but having all this on your hard drives, it requires a lot of space, so 4k is a good compromise between weight and quality. 😆

                    midorijin I must do really poor communication as you are trying to address your concerns so softly. Sorry about that.

                    Also trying to make sure we are discussing the same thing. Finally I've got you.

                    Can you share 1440p and 1920p files so I can take a look? If you can make 3860 or similar that would be really appreciated. Have to check the whole video, not just screenshots. Otherwise 1440p might be low enough to see a positive effect. Not that anyone is producing any such videos now

                        that title

                        Upscale brings no quality improvements

                        is just wrong

                        upscaling can bring some improvements but they are not dramatic improvements like filming in higher resolution. are the relatively minor improvements from upscaling enough to justify the time and cost of doing it? maybe they are maybe they arent but to say that it brings no improvement totally isnt true.

                          doublevr No, don't worry, I just went ahead to avoid any misunderstanding, since I imagine that with u/thejinx2Na, since it annoyed you for more than a year, it must have annoyed you.

                          So, it was just a 15-second test I did in December.

                          My PC has been used for several months for re-encoding, so unfortunately it doesn't have the time to manage this upscalling for the moment.

                          I agree that making a comparison on a simple image is not the most representative, but with a video, you need the time to go back to the user interface, restart the new video, come back to exactly the same passage ... personally, I take for granted that just by going back to the user interface, the eye has lost the information of comparison of the video (unless there is a "really" flagrant difference as if we went for example from a video with a lot of block of visible pixels to a super clean video.

                          I'd have to take a moment to make the video, but not easy.

                          Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

                            spacepirate we can disagree on that. the best thing would be to provide a sample showing that like I did

                              doublevr

                              Can upscaling bring higher perceptual quality?

                              Well this is highly subjective. Upscaling can not bring any more real details, but in can render the available details in a way that is subjectively more pleasing to the eye.

                              And in fact, your comparison that should prove it does nothing actually shows that upscaling can do a lot.

                              The edges are a lot better defined, the railings on the ceiling look much better, and the mesh on the ceiling actually seems to have even more details. Whatever upscaling algorithm has been used seems to do a great job in detecting and filling up patterns. Even the pink lights, which look terrible in the original picture look while far from perfect quite a bit better.

                              It does that at the cost of quite some sharpening halos, so it might be subjective which one is better, especially as most of the improvement seems to happen in the background, while the sharpening halos are most disturbing around the model and the lingerie.

                              But you certainly can not say it does nothing.

                              Also WankzVR did some AI upscaling of their old scenes some still shot with 2k and they improved a ton. Especially the actresses look so much better in their upscaled versions, unlike the background which still looks like paintings, which made me wonder if they actually used the photoshootings of the girls they do with their videos to train the NN.

                              Are the comparable to scenes shot in real with the same pixelcount? Of course not and by a large mile.
                              But do they look better then the originals? Hell yes.

                              So you can not say, upscaling never ever can bring anything. The amount and if there even is an improvement varies highly on the algorithms used and scenes, but there are definitely some that show visible improvements, although of course they are no match to scenes already shot with much higher pixelcounts.

                              You could argue, that it is not upscaling that does the improvement, and you could get the same with the original file and post processing during playback, which of course is true, but with offline upscaling you have basically infinitely more computing power available to do so, so the end result can and in most cases will be better.

                                  ibins None of that is seen in the headset ¯\(ツ)/¯

                                  Did my best to see a difference, but couldn't see any.

                                  Wankz upscale looks absolute garbage to me. Seems like overupscaled. Totally unwatchable. I would prefer original files much more.

                                  With current state of tech there's absolutely no reason to upscale. Nor upscale fans on reddit should assault me for stating that LOL

                                      I don't do any AI upscaling myself, but to me, I can definitely see the difference between an older NA 3k video file with a AI-enhanced 8k video file (done by a fan, not by NA themselves).

                                      Here is a screenshot of my own for comparison. Both are from the same frame and both from the "left" lens.
                                      (Left 8k, AI-enhanced) || (Right 3k, original)

                                      https://i.imgur.com/5DRclv7.png
                                      The left side (remaster) is definitely clearer and has more detail (look at the guy's hair between his belly and dick), and it is smooth (it doesn't have the jaggies on the edges like common "upscale" videos do). The right side (original) also has some compression artifacts (look at Karla's cheekbones) and lots of jagged edges that the remaster removed.

                                      But it's the AI-enhanced that makes all the difference. I do agree with what @doublevr is saying regarding how many studios are simply exporting lower res files to higher res (like 7k and 8k) and all they are doing is using some basic "sharpening" filters. I don't like this practice, as it is false advertising and just balloons the file size. But from my experience, seeing the few really well-done AI enhanced remasters are pretty cool for those legacy scenes from years back.

                                        g2kbuffetboy I can definitely see the difference between an older NA 3k video file with a AI-enhanced 8k video file (done by a fan, not by NA themselves).

                                        do you have a link for that?

                                            doublevr Sure thing. I'll DM you on reddit because it is a "free" link and I don't want to support those on these forums =)

                                              g2kbuffetboy otherwise can't really see any real difference. Neither it is going to be seen in VR. Can't justify any effort in that direction.

                                                doublevr I bought a copy of Topaz Labs video AI enhancement. It CAN do quite some impressive things. But there are many caveats and does not work in every instance.

                                                PH default quality 400% zoom

                                                AI Enhance


                                                Been experimenting but the longer the video, the harder it is to get consistent results. So I'm looking into using different enhancements of the same video and then use masking/blending to try and get the best results. But it's a lot of work + am still learning.

                                                    doublevr

                                                    None of that is seen in the headset ¯(ツ)/¯

                                                    You can when you know where to look. As the benefit is mostly seen in the background it is still very subjective if the upscale is really better, but it is there and in some parts undenieable.
                                                    Also the pink lights show less jaggies in the upscaled picture, and they are a huge distraction in an otherwise great video. Unfortunately they are still there, so it is not a huge improvement, but a slight one nonetheless.

                                                    I am wondering if and how much it would be better if the upscaling would have been done on the "RAW" material and not an already sharpened final output. This already has some slight sharpening artifacts which usually get worse with upscaling, and also limit how aggressive you can use sharpening during upscaling before it becomes too much.

                                                        ibins we can provide you one to try. just let me know the video and where to send